[Cynnabar] To Seneschal et all

Aaron Elkiss aelkiss at umich.edu
Thu Feb 9 15:09:23 UTC 2012


(Speaking personally): I agree -- If there is substantive opposition
from a member of the populace, that person has a responsibility to
make it known either on the mailing list or to an officer in private.
I don't think a online poll would help with any of the areas I see
difficulty in -- lack of official information and getting opinions
from people who don't read the mailing list or go online regularly.

(Speaking officially as the webminister/mailing list administrator):
Please keep the discussion respectful, and refrain from personal
attacks. Due to the emergency situation, I don't feel it would be
appropriate to ban anyone from the discussion, but please: keep it
civil.

-a

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Matt Lagemann <malagemann at gmail.com> wrote:
> How is this slanted?  Because more people respond in one direction?  Just
> about everyone who regularly attends Cynnabar meetings has voiced their
> opinion.  So the people who take the most active role in our finances has
> made a statement, just like a we would in a meeting.
>
> I am not against the poll per se, but I think the other options available
> also fit in fine.  Besides, lets say the poll does go out right now and then
> on Friday at 6:30 pm we receive new information that is important and could
> change the way people would have voted.  What then?  Do we throw out the
> polling numbers because of new information?  That violates the vote people
> sent.  Do we allow our officers to keep the decision even if it now changes
> the basis on which we voted?
>
> Personally if new information comes to light, I want know that I have not
> tied anyone's hands.
>
> I realize that what we are doing is not under optimal conditions, but I
> think anyone and everyone who does have an opinion has options, both public
> and private, to state that opinion.  If our Seneschal tells me that we are
> going with an option I don't like, but in private conferences with several
> members of the barony finds it to be the most liked and best for the group,
> so be it.  I remember the three meetings we spent deciding if our current
> Seneschal was the man for the job.  I have faith in the ability of Baronial
> Leadership (our Baronage, our Seneschal, and our Exchequer) to take the
> information given to them by their superiors and our desires and synthesize
> the best possible choice.
>
> Ermenrich
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Randy Asplund <randyasplund at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> And yet, if the poll I wrote were distributed out to our membership along
>> the schedule I proposed it would get a higher response (thus a more accurate
>> sampling) of the greater number of members. We "poll" (call it a vote if you
>> like) at almost every Cynnabar meeting by a show of hands. Why is this
>> different?
>>
>> Do you really want to steam-roll this without adequately sampling the
>> opinion of as much of the group as possible? The seneschal making this call
>> based on his interpretation of emails in a situation that is slanted in
>> favor of one opinion is not fair and not representative. At that point, our
>> own rules call us to go back to the consensus model of three meetings. Would
>> you rather have that or compromise enough to allow people to voice their
>> opinions honestly and fairly?
>>
>> Regardless of how I would "vote," (and as I said, I still do not know how
>> I will vote yet) I will keep pushing for  fair and honest sampling of
>> opinion because it is the right thing to do.
>>
>> RanthulfR
>>
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Greg Less wrote:
>>
>> Sir Ranthulfr-
>>
>>    As stated yesterday, the Barony of Cynnabar does not vote. A poll,
>> regardless of the outcome, could not be used to make a decision on this
>> matter because it would be tantamount to voting.
>>
>>   In my experience, it has always been the job of Cynnabar's  seneschal to
>> listen to the discussion, steer the discussion, contribute to the discussion
>> impartially, and at the end of the allotted time, decide whether a consensus
>> opinion has been formed on the proposed action and whether or not a
>> substantive opposition has been voiced to said proposal.
>>
>>    Here, the proposed action is to give the Kingdom 18% of our 2011
>> coffers rounded up to the nearest dollar. The discussion is ongoing. I am
>> sure that Finn is doing his best to hear all of the opinions, both pro and
>> con, and decide whether the aforementioned consensus has been reached
>> without substantive opposition.
>>
>>    If a person wishes their voice to be heard on this matter, but does not
>> wish to speak up in public, Finn has made his home phone number and personal
>> email address available. Their Excellencies are also available for private
>> communication,  I am sure. There are plenty of ways to get your opinion out
>> there; don't let being shy, my rhetoric, or anything else stop you from
>> being heard.
>>
>>
>> -Gregoire.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Randy Asplund <randyasplund at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Lord Finn,
>>>
>>> How will this decision be made before Saturday? A poll has been proposed
>>> and seconded, and another person has offered to draft it, but t is now
>>> Thursday and we've had no word yet about how the decision will be made.
>>>
>>> I ask because I am concerned that this group might make the mistake of
>>> using the gist of this week's emails to imply a decision rather than
>>> actually using a method that is impartial and non-public. We are already in
>>> a darker than gay area for stretching the "emergency decision" definition,
>>> so we should try our very best to be as fairly representative as possible.
>>>
>>> The logic for using the poll system rather than looking at past emails is
>>> about fairness because:
>>>
>>> 1) Although many posts on this subject have been made, the majority of
>>> the posts have been from the same few people, which is not a fair
>>> representation of the far greater numbers of the Barony. In fact, we have
>>> not heard from most of our active membership and only (if I counted right)
>>> three of our local Peers. It may turn out that the opinion of the ones who
>>> posted the most for one side carries the favor of the majority, but we won't
>>> know until we have a chance to decide and vote in private.
>>>
>>> 2) From the first post by Gregoire, language has been used that would
>>> dissuade anyone who disagreed from saying so has been used. I am NOT saying
>>> that was intentional on anybody's part, but that is certainly the
>>> psychological effect. Who wants to publicly state an opposing opinion when
>>> it might cause them to appear ungenerous or not in support of Kingdom and
>>> Society, even if they thought there was a better way to do both? I know for
>>> a fact that there are people who have not posted but do disagree. They
>>> deserve to have the opportunity to be counted privately and impartially.
>>>
>>> 3) There are people on the list who just don't post much, but would like
>>> to vote. There are also members of the local group who are physically active
>>> but are not on the list-serve.
>>>
>>> 4) Some people have expressed off-list that they have not posted because
>>> they felt others had already made their points.
>>>
>>> 5) Regardless of what has been said already, we are still waiting for the
>>> last information to arrive, and people on either side might change their
>>> minds in either direction based on that information. Frankly, I don't even
>>> know how "I" would vote yet.
>>>
>>> 6) And who is eligible to vote ought to be stated. (Please note: This is
>>> not a slight to Their Graces, who live in Pittsburgh. I personally feel that
>>> anyone who feels they are a member of Cynnabar first and foremost should be
>>> allowed to vote. But we have people on this list who are in a grey area and
>>> others who were just plain never members of Cynnabar but simply want to keep
>>> aware of what we are doing).
>>>
>>> I doubt strongly that anybody in either camp wants anything but what is
>>> best for the SCA, for the Middle Kingdom and for Cynnabar. The question is
>>> really about what is the wisest way to deal with the situation. The decision
>>> needs to reflect the honest opinion of the group's members without having
>>> anybody feel socially pressured into voting against what they believe.
>>>
>>> RanthulfR
>>>
>>> Randy Asplund
>>> Facebook: "Randy Asplund, Artist"
>>> www.RandyAsplund.com
>>> Maker of Medieval books and
>>> Illustrator of Science Fiction & Fantasy
>>> (734) 663-0954
>>> 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI 48103
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Barony mailing list
>>> Barony at cynnabar.org
>>> http://lists.cynnabar.org/listinfo/barony
>>>
>>
>>
>> Randy Asplund
>> Facebook: "Randy Asplund, Artist"
>> www.RandyAsplund.com
>> Maker of Medieval books and
>> Illustrator of Science Fiction & Fantasy
>> (734) 663-0954
>> 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI 48103
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Barony mailing list
>> Barony at cynnabar.org
>> http://lists.cynnabar.org/listinfo/barony
>>
>
>
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