[Cynnabar] Generalist Events- The real question?

Monique Rio mrio at umich.edu
Fri Sep 16 14:43:52 UTC 2011

And don't forget that just because you are comped, doesn't mean you
have to take it. You can always be generous and pay anyway.


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Aaron Elkiss <aelkiss at umich.edu> wrote:
> To be clear, I am not seeking an exception for my community. The
> services you describe are all ones I think would warrant a discounted
> or waived site fee. Just because it isn't the norm to do so doesn't
> mean it's right not to do so.
> -a
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Randy Asplund
> <randyasplund at comcast.net> wrote:
>> The real question comes at the end of this.
>> First let me say that I do appreciate the physicality of being a musician. I
>> spent many years in orchestra and have had times when I would literally play
>> my guitar until 4am. I get the whole "blisters on my fingers" bit. But...
>> Are musician and dance teachers at an event doing anything different to
>> warrant being comped? Not in my POV.
>> For example: There are clear circumstances where fighters are taught by
>> people who are experts, people who came specifically for that, and who are
>> expected to work a whole lot harder than a musician. The event is called
>> TOC. At this event the chivalry specifically show up to work with the
>> fighters. They are in armor and on the field all day, which is a very hard
>> and grueling thing. We specifically evaluate what the fighter is doing and
>> work with them to improve their skills. Many of us are booked to teach
>> specific classes on aspects of fighting. We pay to be there. Nobody comps us
>> for our efforts. And why do we do it? Because it is our hobby and it is fun.
>> When I am asked to go teach scribal arts at events in our kingdom, I am
>> specifically asked to be there to teach. I am helping that event to succeed
>> in much the same way your musicians and dancers are helping, because it is a
>> hobby aspect of my SCA participation, even though it is also my mundane
>> profession.
>> How are these things different from the services provided by the people
>> Terpsichore comps?
>> With the exception of the few mundanes who come to the event as hired
>> professionals and the possible SCA person who is traveling an unreasonable
>> distance such as from far out of kingdom (not within the range that any
>> other SCA person would likely travel for an event), I don't feel that it is
>> appropriate to comp SCA regular musicians and teachers for participating in
>> their hobby.
>> Yes, I know that puts your community in a spot because it changes the sub
>> cultural expectation in the music/dance community. I understand that because
>> of that subculture's evolution what I personally believe is not appropriate
>> might nevertheless have to continue to exist or take a while to change so
>> that it doesn't totally mess up the Terp event. The bottom line is that even
>> though I feel it is inappropriate to comp these people, for the good of the
>> group it might be worse to just have all of the rest of us force you to
>> change "cold turkey". Doesn't work for smokers, so why should we expect it
>> to work for Terp?
>> Maybe THIS is the real question?
>> RanthulfR
>> On Sep 15, 2011, at 9:37 PM, Monique Rio wrote:
>> My response to Gregoire is below. But to address some issues that were
>> brought up after his email,
>> I mention other organizations for a few reasons:
>> 1)  To show that comping/discounting entry fee to events works in
>> other organizations and the events make money, and people still are
>> generous.
>> 2)  Other groups are often better than us at developing intermediate
>> and advanced skills in an organized fashion. Part of this is because
>> they better recognize their teachers and volunteers. How many of us
>> with advanced skills got them just by going to events? None. Classes
>> offered at events are just the beginning; substantial outside work is
>> always required.
>> Also, the Renaissance festival is more like us than you might think.
>> Most performers are not paid particularly well, and there are only a
>> few true masters; most of them are there because they like performing
>> at the faires. (We say this as people who have performed at a
>> Renaissance festival.)
>> Here are my thoughts on this:
>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Greg Less <greg.less at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All-
>> 3) Teaching is volunteering. It's fun. It's also work. The fact that
>> in general the SCA doesn't recognize teachers through some kind of
>> discount (in effect making them pay to teach) doesn't make it right.
>> Back to who should pay...
>>   In my opinion, if we comp teachers for doing what they enjoy, we are
>> effectively subsidizing the hobby of some of the players and not othes.
>> Since this is an opinion, and one that not everyone agrees with, let’s set
>> it aside for now and instead look at some of the various slippery slopes
>> comping teachers can take us down…
>> If I go to a dance workshop for swing dancing, the teachers get paid.
>> If I go to a music workshop outside of the SCA, the teacher gets paid.
>> We're not asking that SCA instructors get paid, but that they aren't
>> having to pay to teach. The slippery slopes I think are exaggerated.
>> Every time a fighter steps into armor and fights someone who is less
>> skilled, teaching occurs. Should my entry into Grand Tourney be comped? What
>> about a knight’s? How about a duke’s?
>> The way I see it, the experienced fighter doesn't have to give the
>> not-so-experienced fighter advice. Is it a good thing to do?
>> Absolutely. But it isn't required. If she's having a bad day, she
>> doesn't have to be there, and if she is there, she doesn't have to
>> give advice.
>> Now, if the experienced fighter is teaching a class on fighting
>> (perhaps like what Sir Jocelyn did), that changes things. Now this
>> person has specifically volunteered their time. People are coming to
>> see this person. At the very least this person shouldn't have to pay
>> to be there.
>> Also, weren't people talking about maybe comping a few dukes to
>> increase the quality of the fighting?
>> At Terpsichore the last two years Master Midair spent the afternoon teaching
>> Jason and I to play chess. We were so inferior to his skill level he was
>> playing both of us at the same time, while knitting. He clearly was acting
>> as a teacher at the event. I hope he had fun, but it might have bored him to
>> tears - we are really rank amateurs... Should his site fee have been
>> waived?
>> It wasn't a chess event. If Midair didn't want to teach he didn't have
>> to. He truly volunteered his time. He should have gotten comped for
>> the track of classes he ran at 9AM. :P
>>  What about people who work more than others? If one dance teacher at
>> Terpsichore teaches one class, and another teaches four classes should the
>> person who teaches four classes have four times as much site fee waived?
>> That's why you work it out ahead of time. There are many ways to do
>> it, and in any case as soon as a teacher's site fee is waived they're
>> no longer paying to teach/volunteer. They're actually volunteering
>> their time. To what extent they want to volunteer is up to them.
>> - Jadzia
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