[Cynnabar] To Seneschal et all
John Wilkerson
jmw at wilkersons.ws
Fri Feb 10 14:06:31 UTC 2012
From a post on the Midrealm FB page, I would encourage us to attend and
ask questions, bring concerns to the President of the SCA.
Johannes
Judy Kirk <https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=651783853>
To all the populace of the Mighty Middle Kingdom, pray heed
this announcement!
At ValDay 39, the Tournament of Chivalry for TRM Eikbrandr
and Runa II, there will be a TOWN HALL MEEETING conducted by
the Middle Kingdom Seneschal and the President of the Society.
This meeting will take place around 4pm in the
Auditorium/A&S Hall.
On 2/9/2012 6:24 PM, dirkmayhew at comcast.net wrote:
>
> I am 100% confident our legal representative, Finn, will act rightly
> and in compliance with the terms of the settlement.
>
> If my emails were interpreted as "substantive opposition," I hereby
> consent to contribute more than the minimum required.
> If Their Majesties request more, I support sending a larger amount.
>
> Randy, nobody is stopping you:
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+set+up+a+free+online+poll
>
> - dirk
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: *"Randy Asplund" <randyasplund at comcast.net>
> *To: *"Barony of Cynnabar" <barony at cynnabar.org>
> *Sent: *Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:22:51 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [Cynnabar] To Seneschal et all
>
> Just got back and have read all that was posted up to here. To answer
> some questions raised for those who did not fully understand what I
> wrote -for whatever reason- I will clarify-
>
> Ermenrich, the slanted direction is that when people start out by
> using words that say specifically that it is "generous" to support
> the SCA in this way, and in a context that sounds like anyone who
> disagrees does not support the SCA or want to be generous to the SCA,
> it is very likely to make someone else feel that if they post openly
> on the list that they feel there might be a better use of the money,
> that they will be branded in a negative light. Nobody wants to look
> bad in front of their friends, so it creates a pressure not to answer
> contrary to that statement.
>
> David, that is why a poll is valuable. It may go out to all of the
> same people, but it allows them to answer privately instead of
> publicly. That in itself means they don't have to worry about how
> their opinion will be viewed, meaning they are free to give it
> honestly and without worry. I still believe that it would do this
> group a service to ask the question in this manner, even though the
> seneschal has already stated the decision. I still feel t is the
> fairest way to get the best answer.
>
> Gregoire, you have taken personally something that was never aimed at
> you. I was talking about the words like "Generosity" and if I remember
> correctly, you happened to be the first person who used it. That's
> your only connection. Several others did the same many times, and I
> made a point to say I felt that the use INADVERTENTLY created the
> potential for people to not want to confront it in public, even if
> they had reservations. I'm not accusing anybody of trying to shut
> anybody down. Yes, people have been pushing hard to get this through
> before allowing the rest of us to look at it in more detail and be
> thoughtful about it, and yeah, that is steam-rolling it. I think they
> are just excited and going with a gut instinct to try to help, so I
> don't blame them for the feeling or getting an opinion early on.
> Nothing I wrote was a slight to you or anybody else who said anything
> along those lines. I was just trying to show how the choice of some
> words can impact a discussion. Please re-read what I wrote and think
> about it. I feel that I have been taking great care to promote the
> most fair and open, honest discussion.
>
> Lord Finn, for reasons stated above, I hope you will consider waiting
> a bit longer, unless you honestly feel that you have already heard a
> telling majority that makes a poll moot. I also trust you to be very
> conscientious in this and have great faith that you will do the best
> job that you can with it. Never doubt that. But we do have until
> Friday night to figure it out. Why rush?
>
> As for opposition, let me be clear. I am NOT standing in the way of
> the decision being made before Saturday. What I am doing is trying to
> help us find the best way to get the best sampling of opinion. That is
> a very different thing. If WE as a group want to give extra money now,
> even up to the full $1200, I am NOT saying I oppose it. I'm just
> asking us to be smart about how we evaluate the situation and make
> that decision.
>
> RanthulfR
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:28 AM, David Hoornstra wrote:
>
> What I would like to know is how an on-line poll will reach more
> people than this process. Does it not make itself available by the
> very same electronic means as these emails?
>
> If the poll does not have in its address list people not able to
> read these emails, I do not see how it will get us new insights.
>
> Nor deos a poll give us the nuances of people's feelings as does
> this discussion. I, for one, do not want to have to force my
> nuances to fit into a simplified multiple-choice quiz.
>
> I would rather trust a seneschal --- having been one -- to read
> all of these and decide.
>
> Daibhid
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: *Matt Lagemann <malagemann at gmail.com
> <mailto:malagemann at gmail.com>>
> *Date: *Thu, 9 Feb 2012 09:56:01 -0500
> *To: *Barony of Cynnabar <barony at cynnabar.org
> <mailto:barony at cynnabar.org>>
> *Subject: *Re: [Cynnabar] To Seneschal et all
>
> How is this slanted? Because more people respond in one
> direction? Just about everyone who regularly attends Cynnabar
> meetings has voiced their opinion. So the people who take the
> most active role in our finances has made a statement, just like a
> we would in a meeting.
>
> I am not against the poll per se, but I think the other options
> available also fit in fine. Besides, lets say the poll does go
> out right now and then on Friday at 6:30 pm we receive new
> information that is important and could change the way people
> would have voted. What then? Do we throw out the polling numbers
> because of new information? That violates the vote people sent.
> Do we allow our officers to keep the decision even if it now
> changes the basis on which we voted?
>
> Personally if new information comes to light, I want know that I
> have not tied anyone's hands.
>
> I realize that what we are doing is not under optimal conditions,
> but I think anyone and everyone who does have an opinion has
> options, both public and private, to state that opinion. If our
> Seneschal tells me that we are going with an option I don't like,
> but in private conferences with several members of the barony
> finds it to be the most liked and best for the group, so be it. I
> remember the three meetings we spent deciding if our current
> Seneschal was the man for the job. I have faith in the ability of
> Baronial Leadership (our Baronage, our Seneschal, and our
> Exchequer) to take the information given to them by their
> superiors and our desires and synthesize the best possible choice.
>
> Ermenrich
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Randy Asplund
> <randyasplund at comcast.net <mailto:randyasplund at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> And yet, if the poll I wrote were distributed out to our
> membership along the schedule I proposed it would get a higher
> response (thus a more accurate sampling) of the greater number
> of members. We "poll" (call it a vote if you like) at almost
> every Cynnabar meeting by a show of hands. Why is this different?
>
> Do you really want to steam-roll this without adequately
> sampling the opinion of as much of the group as possible? The
> seneschal making this call based on his interpretation of
> emails in a situation that is slanted in favor of one opinion
> is not fair and not representative. At that point, our own
> rules call us to go back to the consensus model of three
> meetings. Would you rather have that or compromise enough to
> allow people to voice their opinions honestly and fairly?
>
> Regardless of how I would "vote," (and as I said, I still do
> not know how I will vote yet) I will keep pushing for fair
> and honest sampling of opinion because it is the right thing
> to do.
>
> RanthulfR
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Greg Less wrote:
>
> Sir Ranthulfr-
>
> As stated yesterday, the Barony of Cynnabar does not
> vote. A poll, regardless of the outcome, could not be used
> to make a decision on this matter because it would be
> tantamount to voting.
>
>
> In my experience, it has always been the job of
> Cynnabar's seneschal to listen to the discussion, steer
> the discussion, contribute to the discussion impartially,
> and at the end of the allotted time, decide whether a
> consensus opinion has been formed on the proposed action
> and whether or not a substantive opposition has been
> voiced to said proposal.
>
>
> Here, the proposed action is to give the Kingdom 18% of
> our 2011 coffers rounded up to the nearest dollar. The
> discussion is ongoing. I am sure that Finn is doing his
> best to hear all of the opinions, both pro and con, and
> decide whether the aforementioned consensus has been
> reached without substantive opposition.
>
>
> If a person wishes their voice to be heard on this
> matter, but does not wish to speak up in public, Finn has
> made his home phone number and personal email address
> available. Their Excellencies are also available for
> private communication, I am sure. There are plenty of
> ways to get your opinion out there; don't let being shy,
> my rhetoric, or anything else stop you from being heard.
>
>
>
> -Gregoire.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Randy Asplund
> <randyasplund at comcast.net
> <mailto:randyasplund at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Lord Finn,
>
> How will this decision be made before Saturday? A poll
> has been proposed and seconded, and another person has
> offered to draft it, but t is now Thursday and we've
> had no word yet about how the decision will be made.
>
>
> I ask because I am concerned that this group might
> make the mistake of using the gist of this week's
> emails to imply a decision rather than actually using
> a method that is impartial and non-public. We are
> already in a darker than gay area for stretching the
> "emergency decision" definition, so we should try our
> very best to be as fairly representative as possible.
>
>
> The logic for using the poll system rather than
> looking at past emails is about fairness because:
>
> 1) Although many posts on this subject have been made,
> the majority of the posts have been from the same few
> people, which is not a fair representation of the far
> greater numbers of the Barony. In fact, we have not
> heard from most of our active membership and only (if
> I counted right) three of our local Peers. It may turn
> out that the opinion of the ones who posted the most
> for one side carries the favor of the majority, but we
> won't know until we have a chance to decide and vote
> in private.
>
>
> 2) From the first post by Gregoire, language has been
> used that would dissuade anyone who disagreed from
> saying so has been used. I am NOT saying that was
> intentional on anybody's part, but that is certainly
> the psychological effect. Who wants to publicly state
> an opposing opinion when it might cause them to appear
> ungenerous or not in support of Kingdom and Society,
> even if they thought there was a better way to do
> both? I know for a fact that there are people who have
> not posted but do disagree. They deserve to have the
> opportunity to be counted privately and impartially.
>
>
> 3) There are people on the list who just don't post
> much, but would like to vote. There are also members
> of the local group who are physically active but are
> not on the list-serve.
>
>
> 4) Some people have expressed off-list that they have
> not posted because they felt others had already made
> their points.
>
> 5) Regardless of what has been said already, we are
> still waiting for the last information to arrive, and
> people on either side might change their minds in
> either direction based on that information. Frankly, I
> don't even know how "I" would vote yet.
>
>
> 6) And who is eligible to vote ought to be
> stated. (Please note: This is not a slight to Their
> Graces, who live in Pittsburgh. I personally feel that
> anyone who feels they are a member of Cynnabar first
> and foremost should be allowed to vote. But we have
> people on this list who are in a grey area and others
> who were just plain never members of Cynnabar but
> simply want to keep aware of what we are doing).
>
>
> I doubt strongly that anybody in either camp wants
> anything but what is best for the SCA, for the Middle
> Kingdom and for Cynnabar. The question is really about
> what is the wisest way to deal with the situation. The
> decision needs to reflect the honest opinion of the
> group's members without having anybody feel socially
> pressured into voting against what they believe.
>
>
> RanthulfR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Randy Asplund
> Facebook: "Randy Asplund, Artist"
> www.RandyAsplund.com <http://www.RandyAsplund.com>
> <http://www.RandyAsplund.com>
> Maker of Medieval books and
> Illustrator of Science Fiction & Fantasy
> (734) 663-0954 <tel:%28734%29%20663-0954>
> 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI 48103
>
>
>
>
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>
> Randy Asplund
> Facebook: "Randy Asplund, Artist"
> www.RandyAsplund.com <http://www.RandyAsplund.com>
> <http://www.RandyAsplund.com>
> Maker of Medieval books and
> Illustrator of Science Fiction & Fantasy
> (734) 663-0954 <tel:%28734%29%20663-0954>
> 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI 48103
>
>
>
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> Randy Asplund
> Facebook: "Randy Asplund, Artist"
> www.RandyAsplund.com <http://www.RandyAsplund.com>
> Maker of Medieval books and
> Illustrator of Science Fiction & Fantasy
> (734) 663-0954
> 2101 S. Circle Dr. Ann Arbor, MI 48103
>
>
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